The photo at right shows Decoy during Commodore's Cup 2013. Note the elegant group on board--responsible, well-dressed men and women enjoying an evening cruise prior to the Commodore's Ball. Some appear to have a beer or cocktail in hand, yet there's no rowdiness, no stupor, no people stumbling overboard, no drownings, no disaster. And not one of them is wearing a lifejacket. That's because lifejackets are for babies. They simply are not necessary on Lake Mendota most of the time (not unless your skipper is incompetent). Alas, they are required by the Union's new rules. Why?
Now look at the other four photos, taken in 2018. Like some kind of adult day care-on-the-water for retards, every single person is wearing a lifejacket. This is despite clear skies and light wind. The crews are all awfully white too, but I digress.
Note also that no one has a drink in hand--despite an activity that would clearly be enhanced by a good buzz. This is because a single beer can cause you to become stupid and wander into traffic or fall off a boat. At least, that's what Dave Elsmo and Union management seem to think. Or are they trying to cover their asses for the drowning that occurred on their watch?
Drinking beer doesn't lead to drownings. What puts people at risk is HSC's favoritism-based practice (dating to Jim Rogers) of awarding J, O'Day, and keelboat ratings to popular individuals who aren't qualified for them. People like Michaela Rabas, for instance. Now, Dave Elsmo and Union management are trying to throw the blame by punishing us.
Think about what management is saying by disallowing any alcohol on the keelboats and by forcing everyone to wear a lifejacket at all times:
We're signing people off to skipper big boats they're not qualified to sail (much less teach on), so you'd better stay sober and wear your lifejacket if you want to live.
It is gross negligence of UW-Madison administrators to say that.
It is because they were overcome by Blue-Green algae during the week. Now they're all sitting there in their life jackets not sure what certain sounds mean. Water on the hull? Huh? Wind in the rigging? Eh? Why do I wear funny thing on boat? Eh.
ReplyDeleteCurse you Blue-Green Alagae! You took their minds!
Keep trolling, moron. Fewer and fewer people are reading your half-backed conspiracy theories because of it. Do you have any idea how to assess the amount of liquor that it is unsafe for a person to have on board? Or are you just going after the skipper of that boat to be mean. What would YOU have done when that young man died?
ReplyDeleteLet me guess? Nothing, right? Just collateral damage to the likes of you and your buddies who cannot enjoy sailing for the sheer beauty of it, and so need to have a buzz on to do so. I would go into more detail, but it is not worth telling you things that you already know.
Such that the standard for training boats in most of the world includes dock-to-dock use of life jackets. Ever been on a Coast Guard Boat, Kommander? THEY wear life-jackets. ALWAYS! Why do you think that is? Or are THEY morons and conspirators as well?
On any given week I can pull down all of the keel lessons and see NEW students in them and not the "old crew" with whom you must have put away rather a lot of beer. How do you explain that? Oh, sure. Hoofers is covering up the REAL people taking lessons on keel boats, right?
Why is there no liquor on our boats, you ask? Because morons like you decide you can swill beers without becoming an asshole. But you do. You are quite a creature, Fleet Kommander. Why don't you come back and learn some facts? Or are you unable to? Hmmmmm.
Hearts and Flowers
A-Non
Oh, and this is ONLY for you. I intend for you to delete it in order to hide any contrary views to your own. You always do. I have copies.
We give Skipper ratings so that new Skippers can practice being Skippers and gain valuable experience. Sometimes things happen to new Skippers that teach them valuable life lessons like why practicing the Crew Overboard Drill is important. When there is a boo-boo you learn that the Crew Overboard Drill does matter. That is all part of gaining valuable real-world experience that helps new Skippers become seasoned Skippers.
ReplyDeleteShould we hold back potential Skippers from gaining that experience? Oh what a Nanny State this blog wants us to have! You cannot make an omelet without drowning a few eggs.
"What would YOU have done when that young man died?"
ReplyDeleteIt never would have happened on my watch. I've skippered the J-boats and heavy keelboats around 200 times, and NO ONE has ever been injured sailing with me (except minor uncontrollable things like bruising shins on the winches and getting meat-hooked on old lifelines). I too hate to see that 2015 incident used as an example of something, but it is a good example of what can happen when everything goes wrong.
Someone (drinking buddies and/or Elsmo) signed her off to skipper when she clearly wasn't ready. She's not the only one--there are some others, but they have so far managed to avoid causing serious injury. Then she said, "sure you can go swimming in this icewater without a lifejacket", and then she proceeded to sail away. That was so far beyond stupid and irresponsible, I'm surprised the blog authors haven't made even more out of it. She also apparently didn't know how to throw a throwable. Was she ever sued for that?
Another commenter makes the point that you can't get experience without getting experience. Riker didn't blossom until Picard was captured by the Borg. Until then, Riker was just a fifth wheel. But throwing people into the fire can backfire if they don't actually have any brains or talent.
Part of being a skipper is anticipating things that might go wrong and making sure they don;t. You all pretend to rant about alcohol and suck up to the Union's lifejackets-for-the-kiddies rule, but maybe you're here because you don't have any ratings and got sick of taking lessons. If you're trying to score points with the bosses, you should use your real names.
A-Non has proven to be a true Dave Elsmo asskisser. Maybe Dave-E himself. To say that Hoofer sailors should be mandated to wear lifejackets at all times because Coast Guard employees wear lifejackets shows the true lack of understanding of what Hoofers is about. Hoofers is NOT a way for overpaid babysitters to make a career out of bending over to UW Risk Management with half-baked ideas of safety. Like mandating a motorboat at every lesson. That is really a liability manager's wet dream these days I hear. Alcohol became the cause of all evil at the UW to the point that nobody respects the rulemakers anymore. Sad because the club members used to be the rulemakers and it worked for so long.
ReplyDeleteMy Lord.....many of you people do not really CARE that a twenty-year old kid died on YOUR watch, huh? Using programs and procedures that YOU set up. Is perhaps your need to shift the blame from yourselves by making Elsmo the villain a method to clear your own souls?
ReplyDeleteHis death seems to have been nothing more than collateral damage to your nostalgic view of the club as YOU likely ran it, and would like it to be run in the future. Of course, you shall never understand that attitudes like Anonymous (07-24@1300) are what led to the sort of booze fueled organization that caused his death. Perhaps not directly, but certainly indirectly.
So let me ask you, people who know everything, was having beer on your boats worth the life of this young man? Do not answer me, as I am done with trying to convince anyone that they perhaps need to think something through. Trying to convince them to look hard at the other agenda and intent of this blog.
Not worth my time. You shall have to answer to another power.
A-Non
Let's stick to the facts, A-non. There is zero evidence of alcohol in either Hoofer death.
ReplyDeleteAlcohol was banned from Hoofers bout 4 years ago for no good reason **BEFORE ANY INCIDENT**. Chancellor-led campuswide alcohol-paranoia if you want to know why. If you want to know a secret, the Union even tried to ban alcohol from the entire Union. Another story.
The following year of the alcohol ban, what happens? First sailing club death. Wearing life-jackets was then made mandatory at all times, a classic overreaction to appease the useles middlemanagers.
And then year later comes another sailing club death. This one caused by a safety motorboat.
Hoofers should be teaching self reliance and watching out for each other. Accidents will happen but somehow never seriously did until the safety nuts and risk managers took over.
Me-thinks the Union and University and A-non also have a growing prudish religious conservative bent. Sad.
Does anyone know who originally signed Michaela off to skipper the O'DAY?
ReplyDeleteSame accident could have happened on a Tech or a Sloop. If your passanger jumps off to go pleasure swimming it is not a man overboard. If he drowns, it is the swimmers' responsibility.
ReplyDeleteOld hoofer rule was that you must wear a life jacket if you can't pass a swim test or during heavy weather or at night. That worked fine for 75 years. State law doesn't require wearing a life jacket on boats unless you are a child. That is how hoofers are treated now. Like children.
In a Tech your are your own skipper and crew. Techs and other lower fleets build better seamanship and sense of wind and waves. Feel the wind, become one with boat, feel the tiller pull....(no more about tillers being pulled - keeping it PG).
ReplyDeleteYou have to have your stuff together to sail a Tech, Laser and that experience really shines when they get to 420's and J's.
Yes, Hoofer's has in the past waved Instructors through without the same rigorous standards (take 20 lessons and maybe next year) for a large boat. Not making excuses, but we never know how anyone will react in a given situation. Which is why we practice emergency drills like CPR and Crew Overboard.
Crew Overboard MUST be mastered! And, situational awareness. Skipper ratings should include the instructor asking situational awareness questions all the time. "Who is at your 6? Did you see the kayakers at Picnic point? Why am I putting K-Y on my fist?" Well, maybe not the last none but I threw that one in so the blog host can have a chuckle.
It takes maturity to tell someone that they cannot be a passenger due to intoxication. Intoxicated passengers are a liability to themselves and the overall well-being of the rest of the crew. Right? Right. It's OK to have fun. It's OK to get silly. But, it's not cool to have someone out-of-their gourd on your boat.
And, if they start huffing glue below decks after you leave the pier, return to the pier and let them off AFTER letting UWPD know that you need someone placed in protective custody so they don't hurt themselves.
Which one of you is HooferX?
ReplyDeleteHow's the Club doing with the African-American demographic? Not enough outreach making African-Americans feel welcome. What's the quick statistic? The Club almost embraces almost all non-White peoples....but why the absence of African-Americans?
ReplyDeleteNo one is talking about this. How many Club members are African-American? This is not just a white thing as the the overall club membership is diverse.
Sometimes people for the most part avoid places where they feel they are not welcome. Why bother. This ongoing subtle brush-off from ALL Club Members is a shocker given just how often the 'offended on behalf of others' crowd from the UW are not proclaiming offense.
And, Hoofer's is multicultural with people of almost all colors..just not African-American.
FIRE DAVID ELSMO!!! Return the club to STUDENT leadership!
ReplyDeleteAnon, Hoofers thrives on "Token" diversity not actual diversity. Many members have been driven out for being too black. Many have been forced to leave because of medical conditions or birth defects. It seems they want to keep the white bread club seeming to care, for appearance only. This is a rich white healthy entitled club, make no mistake.
ReplyDeleteWe need diversity in promotional papers... not on the piers.
Frank, I know exactly who signed Michaela off. I know who revoked it for past incidents, and who reinstated it. 2nd, NO-ONE, who knows he can't swim, is high and drunk goes for a "Pleasure Swim" when the water is 50 degrees. He had the no-skid pattern of the deck of the boat imprinted on his forehead when he was found.(Read the report) at somepoint his head made STRONG contact with the deck. This was a cover-up, plain and simple. Bagabir, was either killed, or negligently left to drown. But it doesnt matter, the rich white kids club couldn't be at fault. just a whoopsie.
ReplyDeleteYou know who signed her off, and someone then re-certified her after other screw-ups? Why don't you post that info, or are you just claiming to know? None of that shat should be secret info.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the drowning, suggesting it was deliberate is quite a stretch. If you read the report, you know he was apparently, a decent swimmer. However the no-skid pattern on his head did seem very odd.
Just an observation but both deaths involved foreign nationals. What are the odds on that?
ReplyDeleteAdd in the suspicious no-skid pattern with the Saudi and then the unexpected Rescue Boat and year long sidestep and we have the makings of the next Jason Bourne movie.
How about we all settle down and deal with facts, okay?
ReplyDelete1. The drowning was caused by a cold-shock heart attack. YOU read the medical report. This kid died the minute he hit the water. READ. THE. REPORT.
2. Alcohol WAS allowed on the boats at the time this young man died. And life-jackets were OPTIONAL! YOU look it up. Quit rewriting history based on rumor.
3. After he drowned, NO ONE in the keel fleet lifted a finger, and only one of them went to the memorial service. Then, when there was NO introspection among the keel leaders to make an environment that fostered better decisions and safety, the university HAD to step in to stop buzzed sailors from taking out boats. Because some of you did not!
4. As to our black membership, there are 43,500 students at UW Madison. Only 844 of them are black. As well, Madison itself is 80 percent white! So let us address the larger issue of why blacks are not being accepted in the university OR in this city that you all think is so great, and perhaps work on THAT, rather than longing for the "old days" when you could do whatever it is you wanted.
5."Both deaths involved foreign nationals" is a ludicrous statement. Have you ANY idea of the number of foreign nationals who are members of the club? Look it up!
6. Reading the same report referenced in another comment, there are no skid-marks because the kid jumped off the boat. PLEASE do not take the word of someone else about what a given report contains unless you verify it yourself!
Many of you, Frito-Head included, have your conspiracy theories. But you cannot twist actual facts and data that you can look up to SUIT your theories. Many of you want the club to be as you ran it for 75 years, but you fail to understand that the world, and the sport, the the university, and the club have moved on.
Many of you seethe with hatred of Elsmo, but have any of you stopped to consider that any replacement would be someone else that you would also hate? Why is this, I wonder? Because you are STILL upset that you cannot make the rules?
So join the club, or if you are a member, get yourself on the BOC and start to change things in a sensible manner. Grinding axes does nothing to improve ANY situation. Straight up logic and discussion AND participation do.
A-Non.
Facts, A-non? Okay here's one: The report says "the head wound had a distinctive pattern abraded in the skin. The pattern appeared to be a match to the non-slip surface, which is adhered to the walking surfaces of the boat."
ReplyDeleteNo one said anything about a skid marks, A-NON. We are talking about the 3D non-slip (non-skid) surface present on most boats including the O'day. If you have that pattern embossed onto your head, it suggests your head hit the deck hard.
There is a lot of other text blacked out on that page so obviously there are other details authorities didn't want us to see. Why? You can't deny it is odd Bagabir would have the boat's texture imprinted on his forehead right before jumping off and drowning.
Still, i admit foul play seems unlikely since there are a lot of foreign nationals her, and they tend to get out and do things (sailing, bowling, lectures, etc) instead of sitting at home watching re-runs of CSI:Miami like most Wisconsinites.
For those who might have not read it, that report is still linked here:
http://hoofersailing.blogspot.com/2015/09/report-drowning-off-oday.html
The abrasion was likely caused by laying on the boat in the heat. Buzzed. Perhaps you can dispute this, but there is no disputing the fact that this young man died of a cold-shock heart attack.
ReplyDeleteDoes the fact that you refute a single fact negate all of my other points? Sadly, for some of your readers I would guess that it may. That is how this blog runs.
A-Non
Oh, sorry....in re-reviewing the original report there is mention that the non-skid pattern was also used below decks. As well, Mohammed had THC in his back-pack. From this, and having come from his apartment, one could surmise that it was also likely that he had a buzz on. ONLY six other people besides me have pulled a copy of this report!
ReplyDeleteSo, all of you "experts" out there perhaps should read it. Perhaps it will also occur to one of those who commented that they blacked out part are PERSONAL INFORMATION! Try not to look for a conspiracy where there is not one. The world is mess enough as it is.
This was a tragic loss of life due to accident. As with all accidents, there were a number of contributing factors that led to Mohammed's death. Picking a single one of them as Frito-Head does only serves to spread rumor and false information.
Get. Your. Facts. Hopefully not from this blog, because it is slanted to suit a person agenda of hatred and damage to the club, and its instructors, and students.
A-Non
"Cold-shock heart attack"? Goddamn, of all the self-justifying, exculpatory bullshit! May I remind you that Bagabir drowned in June? So we're supposed to believe that an otherwise-healthy 22-year-old man suffered cold shock so badly in 60-something degree water that he suffered cardiac arrest, despite the fact that he had jumped in the lake weeks earlier (and many degrees colder) with no ill effects. Bullshit. May I also remind you of the timeline of events as recounted by the witnesses?
ReplyDeleteJust after he jumped in the water, he was about "car length" from the boat. The world-record standing long jump is just over 12 feet, so that's an impressive distance to leap from the deck of a boat.
When he called for help, he was too far from the boat to throw a floatation device to him. (NB, a person calling for help is still breathing, not drowning or involuntarily gasping from cold shock.)
When he disappeared under the water, he was far enough away from the boat that it took a skilled swimmer quite some time to reach his location.
Now let's Sherlock Holmes the shit out of this: Even though he was frantically trying to swim toward the boat, at each point down the timeline, he's further from the boat. It's almost as if the boat was moving away from him, even though Skipper Rabbas had "stopped the boat" by going into a heave-to position! But eliminating the impossible leaves only that improbable scenario.
Actually, it's not so improbable that a skipper who got her rating in a back-scratching swap with another instructor would lack the experience to know that the boat keeps moving 1-2kts. in a heave-to. Nor is it improbable that a swimmer chasing a boat that's rapidly drifting away from him would panic and drown. (In fact, it's happened often on Madison lakes.)
I get it, though, it's easier on the ego to blame anybody else (Elsmo, the Union administration, the chancellor, Gov. Walker, etc.) than to own up to the possibility that maybe it's the club's fault for watering down ratings standards because its leaders are too incompetent and/or lazy to work for it.
Concur that a more skilled skipper would have better command of the boat.
ReplyDeleteIt was a bit disheartening as an earlier poster pointed-out that life or should we say the Par-tee Life went on without interruption following Bagabir dying in front of her eyes. I would have expected a more sober attitude from the skipper but the Par-Tee life immediately went on without a period reflection or apparent remorse.
That was the real failure.
1 Michaela Rabbas was Certified and rated after exactly 1 lesson by Louis Tennebrossu. (Not sure of the spelling) I had revoked her rating, and it was re-issued by David Elsmo so she could teach. Louis and Michaela were romantically involved at the time.
ReplyDeleteAlcohol WAS banned at the time of Bagabir's death.
The ban, I believe led to a delay in the time she called for help, because she didnt want to get into trouble.
Bagabir, in the report, DID NOT KNOW HOW TO SWIM!!! so asserting that he jumped in to take a dip is ludacris.
the no skid pattern on his head was abraided, so NO it wasnt from him taking a nap face down... He hit his head hard enough to leave the deck imprint in is forehead that was obvious DAYS after, when his body was finally recovered.
Michaela FAILED to execute a man overboard drill NOT because she had been drinking, but because she couldn't and didnt know how to, because her rating was blatantly sex for rating, and rubber stamped by a populist and overworked Head of Instruction.
The O-Day side slips like crazy especially in low speed, because it is a swing keel or a board rather than a fixed keel. in Low speed you can NOT TACK IT. you have to fall off the wind and accelerate, and/or blow the jib to affect this maneuver. SHED HAVE KNOWN THAT IF SHE HAD TO TEST OUT ON THE BOAT. instead she was fast tracked by
tennebrusso and Elsmo.
It was in June, but my recollection is the water that day was upper 50 degrees, and if he could swim he still should have been fine.
Most likely he slipped, banged his head hard, and fell in. Michaella was unable to execute the maneuver because she had not been trained to on that boat with its side slippage, Louis and Elsmo were GROSSLY NEGLIGENT in not only letting her sail a boat she couldn't handle, but to teach on it. She used more fuel than any other sailor on Mystique, because she needed the motor to do the maneuvers!!!
Her delay in asking for help is attributable to the alcohol ban, for fear of trouble. You will never be able to keep alcohol off hoofer boats, all you will do is prevent calls for help in a timely fashion. Its not a Par-tee lifestyle, that did this. It is the over regulation and fear of reprisals and ostracization that did. along with Ratings for Sex, that put an inexperienced sailor in a bout she wasn't trained to use.
-Mor Anon Than U
A-non makes a good point that a pattern imprinted into someone's forehead would be more likely from lying down or sitting back against the wall for a while, on deck or in the cabin, not from hitting it briefly. And then, when the guy woke up below in the warm cabin, he would have felt like... swimming!
ReplyDeleteAs for the report, the link in the post linked above is a re-upload. The original link, which is also there but is now dead, had i believe 20+ downloads when i downloaded it last year.
Hehe, you typed that while i was typing my comment. I agree, the O'day hoves to like shit, and the J22's don't hove to well either. But the water that day was inthe 60s, at least at the surface. HOWEVER, the lake water stratifies and can be much colder 6 feet down, even in June, and when you jump off a boat like that, you probably go down 8-10 ft. He could easliy have hit 45-50 deg water. I don't see anything in the report about a heart attack, but it was certainly shock-related. There are some comments on all this in those older posts.
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeleteNo nonskid in the cabin of mystique, Abrasions dont happen on the forehead, from resting on it face down. Noone feels like swimming if they dont know how to and still, putting Michaela at the Helm was gross negligence at best.
More obfuscation again, Mor A-Non than U. Perhaps alcohol was banned on boats prior to this incident, but it was made a "wink-wink" ban by many in the keel fleet. I personally went on a number of keel boats before Mohammed drowned and let me tell you, the beer was flowing! As well as the smell of pot in the air.
ReplyDeleteSo yes, perhaps it was banned, but most simply ignored the ban because it was not monitored and not enforced. And we all knew it! And I expect that many on this site will now blame the UNION for not enforcing this ban....after you have blamed them for putting it in place to begin with, right?
As to the grip tread print, note in the I/R that this same pattern was used below decks. How many times have any of you whacked you head reaching for something down below? Huh? How hard is it to fall out of a boat with life-lines and hit your head at the same time? Not an easy deal. Perhaps try it yourself?
Read the autopsy as it relates to cold-shock heart attack, those who say that this is a cover up. Or hey! Look on the Web! This young man was a Saudi National and not used to cold temperatures. What you call swimming appears to have been his floundering attempt NOT to drown. He stopped doing so when he died and sank to the bottom where he was found the next day.
Water temperatures are different farther out in the lake. So the notion that he had jumped in from a dock may be true, but he would have got right out, AND the water is warmer toward shore.
The notion that any response to Mohammed being in the water was delayed by ditching any evidence of drinking is laughable. That could have been easily done AFTER the call was made. Took first responders a bit to get there. Trust me, when you are losing a person to drowning you do NOT think about destroying evidence. Besides, how do you sink a beer can?
So let us not all hide behind the curtain by blaming someone else. We ALL killed Mohammed....ALL of us! Because we were all lax in observation of the rules and of common sense. Though I had no direct involvement in his death, every day, and every lesson I take out reminds me that I too had a hand in Mohammed's death. In a sense, we are all murderers, no?
Own it. Go on. Read the autopsy. Get some facts from anyone other than Frito-head on this blog. Quit blaming everyone else but US. Because THAT is where the blame belongs.
A-Non
Yes, we are ALL to blame.
ReplyDeleteEspecially the skipper, Michaela Rabbas, For being incapable of doing a side slip tack, because she was neve3r trained propperly how to.
Louis Tennebrusso, for giving her the rating because they were "involved".
David Elsmo for Giving her the rating back so she could teach, He has way too much responsibility to be bothered with small details like "Ability" and ensuring people know what they are doing.
All of the rest of us for seeing it and not saying anything. And allowing the Union to change the club fundamentally as abruptly as they had.
Prior to the Unions Prohibition, we made it 76 years with absolutely ZERO deaths. First year of Prohibition, first death.
The Union's priority is not safety. It is liability, and appearance of safety in court. Their interference, caused this. and to quote Albert Einstein. "Doing the same thing and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity."... 2 more years of prohibition, second death. Poor Yu Chen.
We are the outsiders looking in. We are the Ninety-Five Per Centers.
ReplyDeleteI don't think we should make all of this go away by saying that everyone is to blame. That is a false conclusion A-Non. You do make some valid points. Most of us at Hoofer's are outsiders looking in on the few that run the upper fleets. And even within that group we are really talking about just a few.
Many of us have been very good at making sure keelers have life vests for everyone. And, at times we have seen and intervened when it was obvious that things were sloppy. Late at night when the keels roll in and disgorge ashore their bilious shambling passengers we are there to get them help.
We are the outsiders looking in at this mess created by the Five Per Centers. And we subsidize them with our Club Fees and Volunteer time.
To lump us in with the Five Per Centers is a distortion of reality.
PS. Pretty sure you'd have to smack your head or face fairly hard on a surface to leave an imprint that lasts after dying of whatever the cause.
Hey, A-Non, if you've got an unredacted copy of the sheriff's report, by all means, share it. I'd like to see how they fit "cold-shock heart attack" in the space only wide enough for "drowning" using Courier Mono. I read the copy linked here then, I read it again now, and it still shows you're spewing bullshit. From the interview with Genthe:
ReplyDeleteElaina stated that she was still on board the boat and noticed that the boat had drifted a bit away from Mohammed and she could see his head out of the water and it appeared that he was swimming fine. [...] Elaina stated that she heard Mohammed yell, "guys, guys" and that he now looked like he was panicking, trying to swim towards the boat. Elaina stated the boat seemed to be moving further away from Mohammed and his yelling sounded more serious.
Yelling and swimming toward the boat is a pretty neat trick for a guy who died as soon as he hit the water, wouldn't you say? The other witnesses told the same story with the drifting and the panic.
As for the rest of you-- Good lord, lay off the booze. I know y'all love the "Par Tee life", but blaming the alcohol policy for the two recent deaths is just a bunch of besotted claptrap. Hoofers has had drownings in the past, but the club just used weasel logic and excuses to claim it wasn't involved. It also has a long, long history of havoc and mayhem: near-drownings, falls, motorboat capsizes, sinkings, severe lacerations, worker's comp claims, 911 calls and emergency room visits, fires, police calls, sexual assaults, tickets and fines, boat collisions, cerebrospinal fluid leaking out of ears from booming, and of course, plenty of detox visits. Take off the rose-colored beer goggles, and the safety record pre-prohibition ain't great.
I was involved for years trying to change things for the better, but all that gets you is ostracized. The Par Tee life faction wants to keep the J fleet ratings cheap 'n easy so they can have their party barges (R.I.P. J/29), and the Heavy Keelboat faction that wants responsible, adult standards gets constantly attacked and shit-talked. Even now instructors will tell members "don't even try" for a rating on the Heavy fleet, because it takes too long. Never mind that they've never even taken a single lesson. Maybe they're just upset that they can't trade sex for ratings?
Evening Sherlock;
ReplyDeleteThey do not fit all of that into one COD. It WAS drowning in the original report. The definition of a cold-shock heart attack is that; "In humans, cold shock response is perhaps the most common cause of death from immersion in very cold water ... The cold water can also cause heart attack due to vasoconstriction; the heart has to work harder to pump the same volume of blood throughout the body, and the person eventually dies." (Source, Physicians Desk Reference Manual). Odd that, the ONLY source that has ever appeared in this blog.
This man was NOT a swimmer. Read between the lines. He was foundering, because he knew, in that terrifying moment that so many of us want to forget....he knew that he was in the process of dying. Mohammed exhibited all of the symptoms of a C/S heart-attack, calling for help, floundering...but his heart gave out, he ingested water, and went to the bottom. However much it does not fit with your theory, it is what it is. His family would have seen this in the autopsy as I did. YOU...may not. It is a private matter. Please respect them in that, will you?
That all said, thank YOU for helping to try and make things a bit more tame at Hoofers. I am already in the ostracized club, so you are welcome to join me, it would be an honor to have you join me, at any time.
There are times in life that even grown people need to get a bit of common sense. Do NOT back off when half truths and outright lies are laid out by Frito-Head as fact. Do NOT back off when you see something wrong happening right in front of you. None of us can afford to look the other way about anything.
That is it from me. There is too much frustration from Frito-Head in this blog, and I need a break from his nonsense. Feel free to call me full of shit, okay? But also feel free to stop the madness when you see it. It is our sacred duty, no?
A-Non
A-non,
ReplyDeleteYour accent comes through, when you type. But, I still consider you a great friend. Heads up ;) careful. Thank you for all you do. Let's have another "Famous Dave's summit, on me this time"
Elsmo needs to go, one way or the other. He is a power hungry elitist, narcissist. The club needs to be returned to student leadership. Many of us live in constant fear of David Elsmo. This isn't right. He is a straight up dictatorial Tyrant that overstayed his welcome.
The "Partee" attitude will always be present. Its a recreational club, pure and simple, but for those score of us that he's come after, for the many thrown out and libeled by him, for those currently living in fear of him, he is a dark shadow of pure evil.
Name another job where ya can impose new regs, kill 2 people and not be forced to resign, at worst. Or at best, a position where you are spread too thin, letting the foxes guard the hen house, and have so much power that you can't see the unintended consequences of your actions.
to Quote Madamme Rand's Objectivism. "To exist is to be something, to possess a specific identity. This is the Law of Identity: A is A. Facts are facts, independent of any consciousness. No amount of passionate wishing, desperate longing or hopeful pleading can alter the facts. Nor will ignoring or evading the facts erase them: the facts remain, immutable."
The fact that David Elsmo's ability to control the club is lacking in every way, is undeniable. He is not capable of being a leader, just a piss poor ruler. It is time for him to relinquish and leave. His dirty ways of operating, his contempt for anyone who thinks different, and his fervor for attacking anyone that stands in his way (including lying openly and provably), seal his fate. He has the respect of noone, and the fear of everyone. He is no captain, he fancies himself a king.
How many more people need to die?
-Serk
So, A-non, you saw the autopsy? Maybe whoever suggested you are Elsmo was right. I can't imagine many people saw it, or was it passed around at a secret meeting i missed? I figured some of what is blacked out in the redacted copy linked here are the gory details.
ReplyDeleteBut why should the cause of death be kept secret? Wouldn't it be better for people in general to know what can happen when you jump into icy water..?
Here is a really good page detailing exactly what happens when you hit cold water, as Bagabir did:
http://lakeice.squarespace.com/the-medical-view/
Interesting and scary.
Ah, what accent comes through? I only have a Midwestern accent. So wrong person.
ReplyDeleteTo Cheeto-Head, that is from ice water...not immersion in cold lake water. This was an example of what DOES happen when people jump into icy water.
But this water was only cold...not ice. But enough to kill Mohammed. As to the autopsy, that is ALWAYS an issue between the family, the coroner, and the police. If they had wanted to release it, they would.
The fact that they did not release it means that they desire privacy. We would all do well to honor that privacy and quit speculating. We all just need to do better next time. As an earlier commenter said, there have been a lot of near misses and bad situations over the years. We all need to work to minimize them.
A-Non signing off.
So then Serk..... perhaps we shall talk one day. Especially about Ayn Rand.
ReplyDeleteA-Non
A-Non, you have my number? I lost my phone in the lake. message me.
ReplyDeleteand Cheeto head. Icy water in JUNE??? really bro?
-Serk
David Elsmo has no business being employed anywhere where he has authority over anyone. He is incompetent, Grossly negligent, and frankly a complete asshole. He is still a child who was popular on the playground, but has no Idea what he is doing, and people are dying because of his mistakes.
ReplyDeleteHe is a good coach to the sailing team, however. So the responsible thing to do would be to allow him to remain as a volunteer coach, but have that as the extent of his influence.
Some are pushing the limits as far as using actual names and calling them a-holes. However, I too have concluded that DaveE is something of a jerk, based on specific actions and incidents I've witnessed as well as his partial responsibility for Bagabir's death (and who knows what else). One wonders how many current instructors are muzzled because he's their boss. Anyway, please keep it civil.
ReplyDeleteThat said, if anyone really wants to see Dave go (or be relegated to sailing team coach), then start collecting actual documentation on any screw-ups in which he's been involved or bad things for which he is responsible. Also lapses in judgment, inappropriate ratings given out, other abuses, etc. If you recall specific incidents and their approx. date, find the incident report and upload it. If you were personally involved, provide a witness account (although that won't carry much weight without your real name).
I like hearing "Dave must go" but that probably isn't going to accomplish anything.
We could create a new menu button up above titled: Dave's Bollocks
Have your people call my people, Serk.
ReplyDeleteLet's do lunch!
A-Non
@Serk: No icy water in June, but potentially very cold. The water was 60 deg at the surface that day, which is COLD, and it was also windy, and wind generates currents which could have brought much colder water up from below. Everyone knows the water at the beach will be colder when the wind is blowing out.
ReplyDeleteHey A-Non, I'm willing to admit when I'm mistaken. If you've seen the complete report, and the medical examiner concluded that cold shock was a factor, well, he would know. It was the comment that the young man in question was dead as soon as he hit the water that set me off. Clearly, he was not. The terms heart attack and cardiac arrest are commonly confused. Cardiac arrest is the heartbeat stopping, and very quickly fatal. By contrast, a heart attack is a restriction in blood flow which varies in severity from immediate death (100% blockage) to relatively mild.
ReplyDeleteIf it was a cold shock heart attack, Bagabir would have had a good chance of survival if the boat crew had pulled him out of the cold water. If it was cardiac arrest, they could at least have attempted CPR. But, they sailed too far away from a swimmer in less than ideal conditions to attempt a rescue, and he drowned. That scenario has commonly resulted in drowning, even without cold shock.
Because the skipper didn't know any better. Because she got the rating without taking the lessons. Which don't even teach this stuff. Because, man, who wants to work on learning shit when there's beer to drink?
not that we need an excuse in hoofers, but...
ReplyDeletehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Beer_Day
This is like 12 Lifeguards around a pool coming-up with ways to blame the victim who drowned under their very noses.
ReplyDeleteOh it wasn't us it had to be because he had a weak heart.
Oh it must have been because of the ice cube near the deep end that made it too chilly in June.
Oh it must be the fault of the Rec Center manager because he is so mean.
We do know one thing for sure - The Skipper of Mystique that day had no business skippering and someone died directly/indirectly due to that and that alone.
That is the 800 lb gorilla on the J that no one is talking about.
What happened to Bagabir, and to Yu chen, shows an endemic failure. Neither death should have happened. Fire Mr. Elsmo start over, that's my take. Too many club members live in fear of him, and too many former members wont come back because of him. We need to focus on community first, THEN safety.
ReplyDelete-Serk
And a community that feels safe with each other will do a better job stepping-up and looking after one another.
ReplyDeleteThe dude is a bit of an autocrat. His way or the hi-way. I don't think he's a bad guy it's just how he is and perhaps that just makes him not a good fit for the Club.
What's stopping you from focusing on community straightaway, Serk? It costs no money, needs no institutional support, Reichskommissar Elsmo can't stop you, it benefits people regardless of what happens between the club and the Union, and it can be started right now, ASAP, toot sweet, today. Focus on developing friendliness and community might bring some of us reluctant former members back, and as a team we could tackle the other problems.
ReplyDeleteI think I know the answer to what's stopping you (alcohol), but I'm willing to be surprised.
Let's stop the lies. The alcohol ban was not a result of an accident at Hoofers.
ReplyDelete'12 UW Alcohol Policy review after football event alcohol incident
https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/university/chadima-investigation-uw-s-lack-of-clear-off-campus-alcohol/article_295fb588-478c-11e1-a0c2-001871e3ce6c.html
'13 New UW alcohol policy
https://news.wisc.edu/campus-adopts-new-alcohol-policy-for-uw-events/
'14 Alcohol is banned from Hoofer sailboats. Mandated by these new UW alcohol rules with no sailing club input.
June 6, 2015 first sailing club accidental drowning.
Damn, man
ReplyDeletewhy are you so wrapped up about alcohol? Drink your beer after sailing would be the best.
"Drink your beer after sailing would be the best" suggests brave anonymous hero who likes arbitrary rules as long as they don't affect him and has never known the joys of a beer on a sailboat. Problem solved, mission accomplished.
ReplyDeleteGreat Struggles for Justice in History:
ReplyDeleteThe civil rights movement.
The labor movement.
A homeland for the Jewish Diaspora.
Booze on Hoofer sailboats.
You know, most people can enjoy sailing without getting blotto. The rest are called alcoholics. But if it's that important to you, get your own boat like others have. The UW doesn't owe you cheap beer barges.
You are missing the point. The goal is not to get shit faced on a boat. I would never even do that, it's a good way to end up tripping and landing your face on a winch. The goal is: to not be controlled and abused by the self-serving child-like minds who run the union and UW these days.
ReplyDeleteIf I want to pop open a beer, or share a bottle of wine with my girlfriend and another couple at sunset on board a keelboat, maybe with some cheese and crackers, while not wearing moist stinky old life jackets, why should we not be able to do that? I'm not a child, yet they are treating us like children, for appearances sake, to protect themselves from liability, even though beer and life jackets had nothing to do with the drowning in 2015.
That tragedy was a result of bad judgement.
Oh-so-ironic that you use that term, after a couple of highly involved and influential club members named their own boat Ship Faced. Of course, it's probably just an unrelated tribute to Boaty McBoatface.
ReplyDeleteProhibition has worked everytime it has ever been tried in history. Noone has ever died as a result. Noone ever died in the roaring twenties. Noone ever died at hoofers when booze was banned. You ZSHALL not ZSHPEEK againszt our new Fuhrer Elsmo, He Ichz all knowing.
ReplyDeletede rulez against drinking make peoplez schtop drinking alwayz. and rulez against schooting schtudents keep them safe.
ReplyDeleteIs it official? Dave Elsmo is no longer head of instruction or team coach. He has been promoted to sailing club advisor. Now would be a good time to split up the head of instruction and coach positions. Beef up the head of shop. How many Techs were working this year? Aren't elections coming up? Anybody even care anymore? But wait, A-non thinks nothing is worth caring about unless it's as big as the civil rights movement.
ReplyDeletewait, so like the two deaths happened because the skipper of cinger and the Harvey crew were sober? did they have the DT's and couldn't control the boat? how's the alcohol policy to blame??
ReplyDeleteThe alcohol policy is nothing but an example of loss of student power at hoofers and the university. With less power comes less responsibility and less caring about watching out for fellow clubmembers-what really kept members safe. SELF-RELIANCE.
ReplyDeletewhen was this golden age of self reliance, I never saw it?
ReplyDeleteDave E and his minions like to think that he is the savior of Hoofers and that the age before Dave (B.D.?) was all alcohol, drugs, poor sailing and no organization. In fact, the age before Dave was about clubmembers being more active and empowered, many more lessons and participation, sailing team in the top 10 and highly regarded as a student club with their own home-grown coach. The coach was traditionally a grad student team member.
ReplyDeleteNow, to justify large salaries to middle managers, Dave E and his minions find any opportunity to badmouth older members and days of Hoofer glory. They see the future of Hoofers as an extended Youth Center.
And Dave E.'s detractors think that he's the source of all grief and destruction, and both sides are wrong. I have plenty more to say about that when I get the time. (Maybe Fleet Commander can publish a guest editorial?)
ReplyDeleteBut the B.D. era did have plenty of alcohol, drugs and poor sailing, that's for damn sure. The people who tried to promote good sailing, responsible alcohol use, stewardship and organization were relentlessly shit on and persecuted by the alcoholics.
That's why the club is so down. The people who worked to keep it together have fled, and the alcoholics have been driven away by the alcohol policy. That leaves Dave, the team, and the youth program. Coincidentally, who's out sailing the most this year?
The pre-BD era was peer-to-peer community. Then it became pier-to-pier autocracy. Are we really in the post-BD era? Who is the new HOI?
ReplyDelete>>> people who tried to promote good sailing, responsible alcohol use, stewardship and organization were relentlessly shit on and persecuted by the alcoholics >>> Huh? that is the biggest non-sense I've seen in this thread. What in the world are you talking about? Once again, blaming beer without evidence.
ReplyDeleteDave is not the cause of all Hoofer grief but he did always side with the Union liability-and-jesus-fearing freaks in sooooo many issues. Paid off. Promotion. Keep bending over.
That's right, deflect by playing dumb. Beer is not sentient. It has no agency. Beer can't make you do anything that's not already in your mind to do. I blamed the alcoholics. Not all literally alcoholics; the ones who shit on the people trying to make a positive difference in the club. It's a literary technique, a figure of speech called synecdoche, whereby a part of something stands for the whole, or vice versa. Beer is the sacrament of the sailing club social scene, so...
ReplyDeleteMeh, I can see that this is pointless. The talk here of community and supporting each other is just empty posturing, you don't actually want to listen to what other people feel or what they have experienced. Nothing's changed on that score, and I predict that the people who build things will stay gone. Good luck getting your club back.
Wat iz an ezample of an "@lcoholic" shtting on "people trying to make a positive difference"??? No idear. Never saw dat. Not playinz dunb.
ReplyDeleteDavid Elsmo must go. There have been too many incidents. Too many laws hes broken, too much power hes grabbed, too many problems, and too many incidents that are highly suspect. He just needs to go. Its time for fresh air.
ReplyDelete-Serk
@John Paul Jones: An editorial on DaveE eh? Great idea...let's see what you can do. Write it up, then email it to us. We will then make a new blog post from your text. (As you're aware, you can use standard html tags for minimal formatting.) Alternately, we could create a new menu button up above, Guest Editorial, which we've thought about in the past. Your call. We reserve the right to make minor edits, correct grammar if necessary, etc. Please try to keep it under around 500 words; if it's much more than that, we will put it under new button as mentioned.
ReplyDeleteSent, edit as you wish. There are HUNDREDS of disenfranchised sailors. and I know you dont like names, but seriously, Dave must go, we need to stop killing people, and we need to stop hiring friends of David, accused of nasty things... format as you wish, eh?
ReplyDelete-serk
those who used to keep the peace, and those who watched over, disagreed with dave and were outcast because of it, WANT HIM GONE!!!
ReplyDeleteGross Negligence, no doubt. The union has been doing everything for years now just to appear like they care. In many cases, they actually hamper efforts and harm people. 76 years of hoofers, ZERO deaths. 1st year of prohibition, first death.
ReplyDeleteWho cares tho, as long as they APPEAR to do right. Like a child playing in the car with mommy's keys hits a tree, but was at least wearing a seat belt, so not at fault.
I agree however Dave's lack of judgement alone, should have had him fired years ago. How is he still employed? He is a walking debacle. So you have my support on that.
-JJ
Can we plan our own Hoofer Sailing Club get togethers using UW Union resources? Like reserve a room and have an open discussion without someone leaning-in from MGMT? What are the options for getting together as a community at Hoofers?
ReplyDeleteSort of a non-Staff and non-Management meeting of Hoofer Sailing Club members? I don't think you can exclude certain members of management such as HOI as they are technically Club Members as well.
ReplyDeleteWould be nice to have that type of non-staff/non-mgmt meeting or get together with some type of productive topic and a next steps approach. Grass roots - love it!
Something like a players-only meeting in baseball or football? why not. The way to get it rolling is probably by word of mouth, talk to people on the lakefront or wherever, build a base of people who are all on the same page. Meetings at the union would be open to anyone, yes, however if the meeting is held at someone's house or maybe elsewhere off-campus (or even on campus?), you can control who sits at your table.
ReplyDeleteFacebook might be a way of organizing something, but anyone and everyone can view posts. This blog is an ok forum but not well designed for organizing things.
But, even if we can get sucha grass roots movement going, what then? Most people with a say are paid instructors or other employees. There used to be something in the club's constitution about a no-confidence vote in the commodore.
first death in 2015, the same year the zebra mussels got in the lake, coincidence?
ReplyDelete#thetruthisoutthere
the truth is out there, but the Zebras were closer to a decade ago. The first death was clear cut Gross negligence.
ReplyDelete-Serk
Let's hope the new floating piers don't get weighed down and sink due to Zebra Mussel accumulation.
ReplyDelete