NOTE: We're starting a new post to continue comments on the "Marina" plan. Be sure to read the previous post and comments too, which are directly related since Dave supports the plan.
Goodbye Hoofer Sailing Club. Hello Peter Tong boat rental operation. What we know as the Hoofer Sailing Club will soon be known as The Tong Family Marina, a Union-run operation.
This idea is the brain-ejaculate of two people: Mark Guthier and Dave Elsmo. It is the natural devolution of a desire to replace the old Hoofer piers, into a broader plan that will give the Union more control over sailing. And who the !@#$ are the Tongs? Peter Tong is an old rich guy who has so much money he doesn't know what to do with it (a grossly overcompensated board member and former president of WARF). Director Guthier picked up his scent and now Mr. Tong has agreed to part with $1 MILLION DOLLARS to get his name on a big bronze plaque somewhere around the sloop pier.
A comment on the previous post has some good links with details on the project, but it is not yet set in stone. The design can still be altered--if enough people complain. NOTE that the webpage linked in the previous paragraph is dated just a few days ago--Aug 14.
That webpage claims that "The Project will transform the lakefront with improvements in safety, accessibility and sustainability and will benefit thousands of Hoofer Sailing Club members each year." Do we have thousands of members now..? Nope. That's another distortion. Nor will it improve safety or anything else, but it will transform the lakefront. By "restoring" the lakefront, what they actually mean is "get rid of all those ugly boats."
Do you think for one second that, after putting $3+ million into "Hoofers" the Union will still let students run it?
To add insult to injury, that webpage also says, "Badgers' memories of the lakefront are some of their most cherished at the Union." That's absolutely true, yet Mr. Guthier wants to crap on those memories by remodeling the entire lakefront! If you want to build us new piers Mr. Guthier, fine, but why take a dump on everything that Hoofers is and was?
Tong and his family want to make this donation for exactly two reasons:
(1) They have so much money they don't know what to do with it and/or need a big tax write-off, and
(2) They want the Tong family name on a bronze plaque.
MR. TONG: WE DON'T WANT YOUR MONEY OR YOUR RIDICULOUS "MARINA", YOU SLEAZY CROOK.
If you really are a former Hoofer sailor yourself, then you know why.
At least, we don't want it for the marina as currently planned, if that includes getting rid of the Techs, scows, keelboats, or Lakelab.
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Sounds like WE need to provide constructive comments to Mr. Tong re: what the Club needs. I am sure he would want his legacy to be positive and not one associated with the negative.
ReplyDeleteSpecifically:
What would a better pier system look like?
How to upgrade the pier system without changing the club spirit and culture too radically?
What is the route for such feedback? I have not been to a BOC meeting in awhile, maybe this was all discussed at some point. It was mentioned in passing at an instructor meeting but no details provided. The BOC seems to be dominated by Dave Elsmo and the sailing team, so maybe they approved this design to make it more like the piers at the crew boathouse down by the lake shore dorms.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me the design could easily be changed do do away with the silly park along limnology and leave the Techs there. And, what is the point of the long ugly storage building that would replace the lake lab? Is it just me or is the lake lab kind of a landmark? And, where would the hot tub (beach, dance area,...) go if that whole area is one big building?!
Much of this looks to me like change merely for the sake of change. Or, worse, it is deliberately designed to put a clamp on club activities.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteIt seems one or two people are trying to get us to require moderation for comments before they get posted. To this end, they are deliberately posting nasty comments riddled with false and half-true statements.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is, you got all the names wrong in your recent comment, which means it was libelous. If you're the one who wanted evidence of criminal acts committed by Hoofer Sailing Club employees, well, now you have some more--you just committed a criminal act yourself (libel). And I'm gonna go out on a limb here, but I'll bet you're a current Hoofer instructor or BOC.
You might want to keep in mind that even when you post anonymously, your IP address can be retrieved.
Think about what we could for the club with that kind of money. Sure, repair the existing piers then:
ReplyDeleteIndoor simulator for Techs and Sloops. Huge wind tunnel fan over a small pool. Put the simulator boats on a 4 or 4 point tethers. Instructors on 'shore' communicate with students via headsets. "Slide back a little. How's the pull on the tiller? Sheet-out"
Now that would be something we can really use!
Apparently you do not like any view that is different from your own? There were a couple of comments that did not agree with you that y9ou deleted. Perhaps you shud edit any comments before you post them if you do not want your readership to know any opposing views.
ReplyDeleteThought that is what your blog was about?
Quite the 100 year Storm. But, they are coming about every 5 years now and soon to be 1 years storms.
ReplyDeleteI think the Tong Family floating pier would be over by the Tenney Locks. Our piers did not fair as well --- but that H section system is a winner. Sure, decking floats-off but the whole thing doesn't go away.
If all the lower fleets are stored on floating piers....what is going to happen to the majority of our boats when the next 2 year storm hits? Need some bigger picture planning here or we risk losing whatever is left of the lower fleets in short order.
I see a new commodores cup event: Riding the storm out, or "how far can you sail the pier", without killing anyone. Or maybe "Pier vs. Harvey"?!
ReplyDeleteDo the piers have bunks built into them to support the boats?
ReplyDeleteGood question. Lots of things unanswered about all of this. It seems rushed, and mostly done under the table too. It is apparent that the main purpose is to let rich people get their name on something.
ReplyDeleteOkay Frito-Head....I have tried not to comment on your pathetic attempt at spinning the real facts to suit your petty anger, clearly dated view and information regarding Hoofers. Free boat rides? Peter Tong Marina? Crooks and thieves running things for their own purpose? Your comments on the new dock system alone show that you have no idea what the plan actually shall be?
ReplyDeleteHidden by some deep-state Union agenda? Yet again a load of hogwash. Were you to have attended any of the OPEN meetings on the new dock plan, perhaps you might have been able to get your head out of your own bag of Frito's. Perhaps also this would have led to some real facts into your so-called blog. But of course, there may be a reason that you cannot attend any of these meetings, right?
Again, I truly tried to restrain myself on this deal, Kommander. You are a clueless moron. Your knowledge of the club is some nostalgic picture of a place where the beer ran freely and girls who were young enough to be your daughters were available to gazed upon with your sick-man longing. Or worse. You are a sick bastard.
Despite your pathetic protest to the contrary, it is clear that you are not a current member. Anyone interested in checking facts on their own as I did, would know that what you are saying is a huge load of old, used up, old man crap.
Grow up, or shut up. Last time I comment, I hope. Because the last time that I did? You got seventy-some comments. This time you have been holding at ten for a week. Judging from the I.P. address that four of them came from? They were YOU, commenting on your own blog. There is a clue here shit-brain. No. One. Cares. About. Your. Drivel.
So go ahead, and put out my name and I.P. address. I've already gotten yours. And I am far better qualified than you are to file legal actions for slander and defamation. Just remember that I have never mentioned your name, Frito-Head.
But go ahead and mention mine and you shall learn that while justice moves slowly, it does move. Besides, I have better attorneys than you do. While you do not know quite who I am, perhaps you have an idea. You would be wrong.
But I know precisely who you are. Where you live. Where you cannot go. What you drive. And who you target. So delete away, you know what I had to say. I do not much care if you prevent others from reading this. That also is who you are, right? Yours is not what one could call a fair, factual, and balanced view. You have too many axes to grind, it seems.
Hearts and flowers;
A-Non
This is an anonymous blog site. Anon above are you saying that you can see everyone's IP address who comments? If you were with a Gov agency you would be in numerous violations of the public trust by using said information for your own ax grinding. Or, are you just a hacker...which has dubious legal distinctions as well.
ReplyDeleteLets relish this generous gift from the Tong Family. It is a blessing! Together and building on the work that has been by others on this project all of us should zoom in on the details so that it results in a workable fit for the club and members.
What fleets do we keep and or move towards after the new piers? Status quo are is there a realignment? Let's work through those details.
Can't we all just get along?
That is a question you should ask Frito-Head. He is the one with his head in the past, unable to enjoy the present and embrace change.
ReplyDeleteA-Non
Let's start a Hoofer Sailing Club blog and do not allow anonymous posts. I think anonymity, and I speak from my own experience, brings out the lesser angels of our nature. I regret many things I posted anonymously. Perhaps a sense of self-shame that I took the low road. I think we're all better than that.
ReplyDeleteA new site where we can discuss the practical issues at hand and work towards solutions! Posts have peoples real names. I think the new marina is a significant event! Having more eyes on things help us identify early on what we need to do for the future.
We're leaving A-Non's long rant up because people need a way to blow off steam. But, ogling young women, getting people's IP addresses, basic insults.... what a rambling ass-product.
ReplyDeleteA club-sponsored blog would be great, and it's sad that we don't have one, but HSC leaders don't want to hear the insults. We don't have anything against progress or change, provided it is for the better, but spending millions to rearrange the entire lakefront and create a 10 foot wide park along Limnology..?!
As for "checking the facts" as A-Non demands, have a look at the following publicity PDF. Right at the top it says "Naming recognition opportunities" followed by the contacts, Botham and Elsmo! As one commenter surmised, that is what it's all about--creating naming opportunities for rich folks:
https://union.wisc.edu/assets/Uploads/Learn-more-about-the-project.pdf
Btw, other blog readers CANNOT see your IP address, even if they're a good hacker.
To Anonymous @ 1400 today, I could not agree more. Only chicken-shit people hide behind anonymous comments OR anonymous blogs. Once the blogger comes out in the open, I would take great pleasure in having a legitimate and ongoing conversation on what each of us see that could make Hoofers a better place. (You reading Kommander? Let's do it! On THIS blog!)
ReplyDeleteA forum in which interested members could voice compliments or concerns without fear of the wrath of Frito-Head and his nostalgic buddies. But you see, he does not WANT what you are asking for. Rather, he is more interested in grinding his axes at some perceived wrongdoing that was done to him, apparently a number of years ago.
THAT is what this blog is all about. So you know, he did not delete my comment of yesterday because I put it up after he was no longer on his computer. Thus, a few others might have seen it and questioned him about why it was deleted. He is correct that it was a rant.
Because I find Frito-Head tiresome and annoying. Like a bug can be annoying. But I have to check in from time to time to see his next bogus, screwed up posting. Why? Because someone needs to be a counterpoint to his often idiotic comments and his all of the time pettiness. I chose me because no one else stepped up.
In his comment (the one he admits to at any rate) he claims to want an "open" sort of blog. But all that is about? He and a number of others hate Dave Elsmo, Mills Botham, and others who made them face themselves and grow up. Or move on. He does not get that someone has to be the adult in the room.
No matter who was in charge of Hoofers, they would be hated by the person who writes this so-called "Blog" as well as his few followers. If you read between the lines in all of this, he wants the club to go back to where it was. Nostalgia is great, but things need to improve and move on, do they not?
So yes, perhaps you and some other readers can push him to go to actual names and a reasonable discourse of what is happening with the club, why it is happening, concrete suggestions on how it could be made better, and logical, objective commentary.
"Dave Elsmo Must Go", and the never ending writing over the crooks and criminals who run the club, and the so-called rampant nepotism grows weary. His continued talk about nepotism is confusing. I know of no member or adviser that is related in any way to Dave Elsmo or Joe Webb, or anyone else for that matter.
Sorry to beat this to death, but Frito-Head does not WANT to do anything that is constructive for this organization. He seems to get his kicks out of taking potshots at issues that he seems to have been involved in during his original tenure with Hoofers.
Hearts and Flowers
A-Non
P.S. Many of you people are naive about what information can be derived as it relates to current computer activity and matching that to an I.P. address. I would tell you how it can be done, but then I would have to charge you for my service.
A-Non,
ReplyDeleteI'm a network programmer. I'm here to tell you, unless you're the US government getting access to IP logs with a subpoena... you're full of it. I like a lot of your rants, but I'm here to tell you - put up or shut up. Because scaring people with nonsense about IP addresses is ridiculous when a google search can tell you that it's not possible.
Websites absolutely log IP information, but it's not stored in an accessible way, as it it's not able to be accessed by someone that only also has access to the website. You'd literally need to be able to touch the servers. I'm calling bullcrap.
Anyways, moving on.
FC: I think you're a bit confused. What are you indicating by pointing at the project doc and noting the contacts for the club? Yes, naming opportunities. As in, alumni donating money. This is an alumni club. It's how we keep things alive. Money, boats, construction. It ain't free, man.
I went back and re-read all the related documents for the piering system. From where do you get the idea that we're getting rid of fleets? It literally has, in the first three pages, a diagram for a NEW TECH PIER and a NEW SLOOP PIER and 8-10 individual boat launches for the scows... and an entire new H-pier for keelboat landing designed to withstand storm gale forces with Soma tied up (and Soma's gone, RIP).
Seriously, what is the deal here? Why are you so panicked? If someone donated a million dollars to have a name on a plaque... so be it. That's perfectly fine. There are worse things to spend a million dollars on. I work in hospitals, and sometimes wings are named after patrons. I treat people just as well in the "Jim Dick" wing as I do anywhere else, and honestly, nobody even reads the plaques. A boat's a boat, and a pier's a pier. If we advertise giving away naming rights to people that donate A MILLION DOLLARS, I say that's a small price to pay. And even then, you yourself said that you don't like the plans... if they come with the removal of the smaller fleets.
They don't. They come with new piers for them. And god knows what else new (the doc is 50 pages long).
Chill * the * hell * out, man.
Evening anonymous @ 8:40pm (PDT). Clearly you know that it would be a bad move for me to "put up or shut up". And you also know the reasons why. So we can just put that topic away for now.
ReplyDeleteBut thanks for chiming in, okay? We need to hit Frito-Head with some facts so that he can begin to get over whatever grudge it is that he harbors and perhaps turn his negative thoughts and ideas into something positive.
A-Non
So, A-non;
ReplyDeleteI made the remark about "put up or shut up" not because I wanted to be rude, but I was playing off of your own usage of "grow up or shut up."
I'm chiming in because I think the comments here sometimes get bogged down in silliness, when in reality they should be used to address the topic of the blog post. I don't think we need to be that rude or rough, but then again sometimes I think that the owner of this blog doesn't think twice before posting some of the things that he or she does.
For example, the FC stated: "A club-sponsored blog would be great, and it's sad that we don't have one, but HSC leaders don't want to hear the insults. We don't have anything against progress or change, provided it is for the better, but spending millions to rearrange the entire lakefront and create a 10 foot wide park along Limnology..?!"
The first part is correct of most agencies. If you've ever worked... oh, anywhere, really... you realize that comments from the peanut gallery are mostly useless. Yes, it's a club, and yes, you have a voice, but that doesn't mean if you 'pays your dues' to join that you get a say in the direction of the club. My father was fond of saying that "money can buy a seat at the table, but experience and wisdom give you a voice." I don't want half the members having a say in how the club is run because they had money to burn on a summer hobby, I want experienced sailors (the BOC) and students that have a stake (the leadership) to make the choices. It's the reason we don't use majority rules in real life, the majority can vote for dangerous and bad things. It's why we have elected representatives (such as they are) to help form informed opinions on those rules.
Exactly zero people ran against Lukas Duddleston for commodore. You know what that tells me? Exactly one person (student-wise) gave or gives enough of a shit about how the organization is run to drop his name in the hat to run it. So in the end, most of people's complaining means very little or nothing to me, because in reality - were I in charge of this organization, I would want everyone to be quiet with their complaints for the most part because they're not rooted in reality. I see some of the "concerns" by readers of this blog in the comments and specifically note that their concerns have answers, answers that require reading, which they don't, so they continue stating there are problems.
By the way, Lukas - if you're reading this, good luck. I'm rooting for ya.
The second part of FC's comment makes no sense. What progress and change ARE you in support of? Re-arranging the lakefront as a problem sounds like a three year old saying "but I don't WANT to put my toys on the new shelf!" It makes no sense. There are reasons for exactly why the plan is laid out as it is... it's actually written in the plan (go figure). It talks about wind, weather, lake damage considerations, damage to marine life, longevity of each type of pier, and describes three different piering systems as part of the proposal. It then goes on to explain the pros and cons of each... seriously, why am I typing this? The plan is years old, went into effect a year and a half ago. Where are all the public complaints? Where are all the people that think this is a bad idea? Have any ever come forward? If you keep posting the link to it, surely you read it? The hundreds of hours that clearly went into the studies? Which part of the study did you do that you get to say it's a farce or not what the people want? How do you even know what the club wants?
Wow Anonymous @ 2:36pm PDT..... RIGHT ON!
ReplyDeleteYou have said it all. Proving yet again that the right words, used in the correct manner, can actually bring change to an organization, a person, a group, or perhaps even a blog.
Well done. Whoever you are, you are someone I would like to know. Someone that perhaps ALL of the people with the club might be better off knowing.
A-Non
Oh, last thing. All Frito-Head really needs to know is not to hide his key where he does, check the ceiling for cameras, check his cable box for odd looking devices, check his home for cheap listening devices, and perhaps line his hat with tin-foil.
ReplyDeleteTHAT is how it is done!
A-Non
Holy shit. This odious A-Non person has just killed any desire I may have been feeling to return to the club. I don't know who you are, and honestly, I don't care. You could be any of a number of people, and that's the problem. This level of petty, vindictive arrogance has been the poison at the heart of the organization for years.
ReplyDeleteThank you Fleet Kommander, for commenting on your own blog.
ReplyDeleteMoron.
A-Non
I'm not surprised at all by the dismissive response, A-Non. Sadly, it's 100% Hoofer style to attack rather than listen. I may be many things, but I'm not Fleet Commander. That should be easy to see with your IP address detective skills.
ReplyDeleteNor am I surprised by yours. Not at all.
ReplyDeleteHearts and flowers
A-Non
I'm listening, but I think this thread is dead.
ReplyDeleteYou can tell A-Non doesn't know what he's talking about when he brags of being able to break Google's blogger anonymous-post system. A-Non is obviously paid staff at the Union. The trend at the Union is paying people well enough so they become part of the clog wasting University funds on middle managers and alienating volunteers. The number of people unhappy with Hoofers sailing staff is in the hundreds. A-Non thinks he knows everybody involved in this forum. He seems to misidentify writers and is trying to make it seem like it's just one person or a couple of grumpy old men unhappy with their life. Every week I meet somebody who is quitting the club because they couldn't find any lessons.
ReplyDeleteI can only speak for myself, but I am very sad about the demise of Hoofer's. It was the last frontier within the state where you could go out, sail the waves and return to port without anyone getting in your hair. It was the non-Nanny State.
ReplyDeleteThe Boathouse looks like a country club and just like a country club all of the shop workers are hidden away from view. Used to be when you were a Hoofer you had to go through the shop area. I don't miss the fumes but volunteers and staff were right there!
And, why no lessons available and just a handful of Techs in service? Should have 35-40 Techs in service but half of their space is now taken by 420's that used to sit on carts. Speaks volumes and I have heard and seen enough.
But the big thing is the homogenization of the experience. By that I mean the removal of everything that is uniquely Hoofers and replacing it with something right out of a catalog.
That's my lament and why I drifted away from Hoofer's. The experience lacks any semblance of its former character. Buildings may create the space, but people make the place.
Okay anonymous at 9:31am and 3:22pm, all I can tell you is to never underestimate your opponent. And I AM your opponent. Let’s be clear about that, okay? You only have to be wrong once. I have all the time in the world to wait for you to be wrong that one time.
ReplyDeleteBut you get some credit for finally nailing who I am. And I AM a member of the Union! But you should know that I am also part of what we call Black-Cell. Our team was formed for the purpose of charging more for everything while the Union and the club makes everyone as miserable as possible so as to run off membership.
Makes perfect sense to us. I mean really, why would we NOT want to turn off people to the point that they do not want to join? So keep telling us you are not going to rejoin the club, okay? That is what we are aiming for! You are exactly the sort of person that the Union is trying to get rid of.
If you were a current member, you would know that the reason we are not giving lessons on much of anything but keels has to do with the docks being destroyed by the flooding and the quality of the water. If you are going to talk like an authority on the subject then try to at least get SOME facts right, okay?
What more do you want? We have made better facilities, provided more opportunities, and have ceased trying to pander to the wants and wishes of you and your particular brand of nonsense. Members like you who want nothing more than to substitute beer for water and ogle young ladies, utterly unaware that you were making them uncomfortable. Members like you who want to "instruct" their friends at the expense of new members who cannot make it into “Your Club?”
Clearly you are also unhappy at Hoofers trying to engage women members of the club much better than we had in the past. Than YOU and your ilk had in the past. As instructors, as members, and as leaders. Are you also unhappy that we have an all-female racing team?
That we have a properly configured boat-house that rents kayaks and paddle boards for a charge. An operation that is only one of two that make any money? You think that all of these actions were for the sole purpose of pissing you off? Not true. It was all done with the intention of making the “Good Ole Boys Club” less relevant. And you have become so.
We have done these things because it was time for the club to grow in programs and facilities that are better than working out of shipping containers. We do not do these things because they are in vogue. We do these things because they are the right thing to do. But you do not want any of these things. You do not want any progress.
So yes. You got it! I am a Union Member. My name is Austin. And I am coming for you. Those who resist change without showing up to have their say are chicken shit. Those who long for the old days so that they can hang onto inappropriate social behaviors are chicken shit. Those who want to block new equipment or structures or rules or anything else that Hoofers tries to do to improve are chicken shit.
You could use the existing club structure in order to put forth your views, but that seems to be too much work for you. How come it seems easier for you to sit outside and spin lies, half-truths, and serious uninformed and out of date opinions than to be a part of making of changing the very rules you despise?
Hoofers is still there. Still what it was. You are just so blind with anger at being shuttled off to the side that you cannot see it. If your aim is to really improve the club, why not rejoin? Why not secure your rightful place in the process as the club continues to grow? Or can’t you?
Hearts and Flowers;
Austin (aka A-Non). My REAL first name. Figure my last name out on your own.
The flooding is a predictable excuse for the lack of lessons and membership. A-non, you are a consistent liar.
ReplyDeleteIgnore numbers from two weeks ago when the flooding started. You'll still find that lessons offered in the last few years have been on a steep downward trend and were less than half the number offered a decade ago. Because of how government systems work, the Head of Instruction was promoted nonetheless.
Rentals are doing well, women are maybe better represented in the club. Great. Prove it. And oh yes, you assume everybody not happy with the club is an old pervert and left. How is that an argument about anything we've been talking about?
Well, it is ALL about what this blog and it's followers talk about. So YOU prove that lessons are half what they were a decade ago. I KNOW that this is not the case. YOU likely also know it, but want to stick to the party line of Frito-Head;
ReplyDelete"Stick it to the club because they made me leave."
You are a sad soul. Show up and get involved. Open your mind and form your own opinions, okay? It is mental work, I know, but it is worth it.
Hearts and flowers
Austin
Time for a new topic....
ReplyDeleteWhat Orwellian language can the club use to be just like Amazon?
Instead of Club Members we can all be 'Associates'? The Boathouse can become the 'Fulfillment Center'?
Or how about we talk about what we can all do to get the Techs back in service? Does the shop need volunteers? That's how we used to roll. And, BTW, not a criticism of anyone or any group. Just want to get these vessels or any others back in service. Gracias.
Austin, they are right. It is easy to verify that there were over three thousand lessons in 2010 and less than around fifteen hundred in the last couple of years.
ReplyDeleteHoofer Sailing Club Lessons Completed Chart
https://imgur.com/a/IjFgzyU
Source data is from a past commodore election. Let's not disagree about the general idea that lessons are way down.
Okay Anonymous @9:48pm, let'not disagree but let's compare apples to apples.
ReplyDeletePerhaps think about the last "couple of years" for your comparison, okay? This year the club did not allow day-sailing or windsurfing until the end of June (I cannot remember the exact date but will be close). Lessons were scarce because much of the dock system was damaged.
Also, in 2017 I know personally of a number of instructors who cancelled far more lessons than in any prior year. This I can verify myself because I was trying to get rated on a certain boat and it took me a long time.
This instructors lesson schedule agreed with mine, so I kept signing up but he kept cancelling due to weather. And they were legitimate cancellations. ELEVEN times! So perhaps use 2016 and I might buy into the "less lessons" train of thought.
For now, I cannot pull up your link and will not cut and paste because I do not like traps.
Austin
The link is safe. imgur.com is just a photo host. You should know that if you can hack into Blogger databases.
ReplyDeleteHoofer Sailing Club Lessons Completed Chart
https://i.imgur.com/IkMbeBg.jpg
2017 and 2018 numbers could be much lower. Yearly details don't matter here as much as seeing the trend. Instruction is way down. Boat usage has a similar long term trend.
If data is available, go back to 2010 and plot moving forward. All of this started way before 2017.
ReplyDeleteIt's a question of priorities and does the data reflect a change in priorities?
"imgur.com is just a photo host. You should know that if you can hack into Blogger databases"
ReplyDeleteLMFAO... Thanks, i needed that.
As for your plot of lessons vs. years, it looks familiar. Is it possible I've seen this plot before? But what about 2017 and 2018? And, does it include other things like conference sails, first aid, security, and ASA which may technically be considered lessons?
Best would be to plot lessons given on particular boats over time, e.g. Techs, Sloops, J22's, and Spray or something like that. Heck, do all boats. The data are compiled each year by Dave. (he is good for something)
As Frito-Head said a few blogs ago; "Most of what I write is true." Hell, I used to get that from my teen aged son. So....most of it is true. And I CAN find the user / owner of a given I.P. address. You would LMFAO more if you knew who I worked for.
ReplyDeleteOn lessons. I believe that you are looking at it the wrong way. I WAS at Hoofers during your base statistical year of 2010. But you see, the amount of lessons given is NOT a true judgement of how the program is doing. That is feel good crap that serves no one. Least of all the students who had to slog around on six sloop lessons in order to finally get rated on the boat. I know. I experienced it.
Instead, we need to be talking about the number of RATINGS given. One of my first observations of the club was the some fleets were taking out students on lessons far after they should have been rated. The answer from nearly a third of the instructors asked was that; "I do not rate anyone because I do not want to be blamed for anything they do".
That is not how a sailing program works. It is quality, not quantity. Anecdotal perhaps, but my personal no-shit observation. The other thing I noticed right away was that many of the keel "lessons" were being given to the same people week after week. To me it seemed that many "lessons" were given to friends so the instructor, in NOT rating anyone, could make more money.
Or if not a paid instructor, at least have more beer-fueled fun with friends. Couple that with dingy instructors reluctant to rate members, and sure, Hoofers might have had a huge lesson count in 2010. But what did members get out of all those lessons?
The proof is in those nagging details that Frito-Head is so fond of twisting; How many members received ratings in 2010 as compared to 2016? Absent that, your statements are just as full of hogwash as you think mine are.
Have a good night
Austin
Do we need to contact a leading University and ask for their assistance with data? Oh my goodness gracious. Thinking things through is harrddd. Numbers aren't hard if they are on my speed dial. Drool.
ReplyDeleteFolks, go to the database for the club and figure it out. Then go all typical with edge-cases and tie your undies in a knot (But wait! Bowline or figure 8???).
Very disappointing but then again you must not be part of a leading University.
NEW RATINGS PER YEAR were almost were cut in half also. Numbers are easy to find.
ReplyDelete'Fewer lessons is a good thing' is exactly the excuse Dave Elsmo uses. It's like facts don't matter or cant' be accepted. The mantra is 'Hoofers was bad until Dave came in, now things are great with fewer lessons and fewer pesky sailors but more quality'.
It's crazy the lack of respect for hard data or the throwing of outlandish claims to explain the numbers from the club's database.
As requested here is new RATINGS using the boat most everybody starts out with.
Tech Light Ratings YEAR 2010 ---- 469
Tech Light Ratings YEAR 2011 ---- 441
compare with
Tech Light Ratings YEAR 2015 ---- 259
Tech Light Ratings YEAR 2016 ---- 250
ratings 2017, 2018 --- even lower
Thank you young man for your hard work. A+
ReplyDeleteNow, when did the current HOI take over instruction, again?
Come on class! Take the next step and correlate other data.
So...if you think that your numbers are correct, something that I do not see in the same set of numbers, how about you become an instructor? How about Frito-Head and his followers join or re-join the club and make an impact?
ReplyDeleteBut all you do is rip away at the club because of some perceived wrong-doing by existing instructors and leaders. It is easy to complain or long for the good old days, so why do you not put your money where your anonymous comments are?
None of you seem to want to correct what you see is going wrong with the club. Why? Are you not able to? Or, more likely, is it easier to just sit back and complain because you did not get your way? OR....are you no longer welcome at the club?
Bye for now. As a great comedian once said; It is impossible to argue with stupid. So I rather doubt I shall try any longer. Whatever happened to some of you may be true. At least in your perspective. But if that is the case, I would think that you would want to shape the direction of Hoofers. If you are able.
Austin
One more thing, okay?
ReplyDeleteIf you torture the data enough it will tell you anything.
Best of luck in your continued attempts to smear good people.
Austin
We don't come back to try to make things better because it's not what the real club leadership wants. We've tried, oh lord, we've tried. But the organization has an immune system that attacks and destroys foreign crusaders. It's even willing to deploy dirty tricks in court, or threaten people with government-spook-level snooping into their Internet connections to protect itself. All for a goddamn college sailing club.
ReplyDeleteSo not worth it. We're not as vengeful and obsessed as PP. We stick around to complain out of nostalgia, I suppose. We remember the halcyon days when you could show up at the club at any random time throughout the week and find your friends there, and wish those days could return.
Is that how adults argue?
ReplyDeleteIf you can't disprove that lessons and new ratings have been cut by 50% simply dismiss the statistics that have been very carefully compiled over the years?
That, my friends, is the state of Hoofer paid leadership these days.
A-Non AKA Austin:
ReplyDeleteCan you calculate, using the numerator and denominator data, the per cent change in Tech ratings for given years? This is very basic math. Open book may be used.
The Stats are compelling. Be interesting to do a plot of all fleets from 2010 to Today with:
ReplyDeleteRatings Given.
This should tell the tale of what is happening with the fleets. A narrative can be provided for why the #'s are such.
Austin may not know how to work a calculator, but you cannot have any stats for ratings given. This data does not exist on the system. Number of lessons does, but not number of ratings. And it never appears to have been a trackable statistic.
ReplyDeleteSorry to rain on your parade, and Austin is a bit of an odd duck, but what you are waying cannot be true either. It can not then be compelling, unless you are making it all up.
Open Records not kept? That data WAS present and I know because it could be queried right from the website. And now the data is gone?
ReplyDeleteWell rock my soul at the bosom of Abraham. And Excussssse me! So, it's a student run club but controlled by gov't employees. But as soon as the data gets scoonched or goes MIA it becomes, oh those whacky hoofers. They so drunk they wiped the data. Pffffttt...
Poor showing. Very poor showing. This why the reek from the club ---the stench of fetid decay rising from the axillas of the club management while the Country Club to the Tsars is built.
Oh, were you trolling the website? Because in looking back as far as I can find data they have never complied data on ratings given. The system was never designed to do that, Data Be Gone.
ReplyDeleteIf someone is trying to tell you that they are making shit up. Because I have had access to data for nearly as long at Austin. It is a student run club, but you do not seem to be a student. more like someone outside looking in?
The list of members with some rating was easily accessible to instructors. Any instructor or BOC member had the ability to mine the membership database with a variety of filters. The membership database has all the rating data with a time stamp, and so even if the number of ratings any given year was not immediately accessible, it was recoverable by contacting Pinfire/4 Lakes administrators. The aggregate membership/rating data is important for assessing the general health of the organization, and as such, came up in plenty of discussions in the past, whether it be a commodore election, BOC meeting, open public forum (which happened sporadically), etc. Various individuals with varying official capacity was able to generate these data. So they exist. Not all of these data were "just a click of the button" but I think there is also a case to be made aggregate data like that should be more public to keep the organization more accountable.
ReplyDeleteAbove Anonymous. Thank you. The Club should have basic data available with fleets, # of lessons, # of people in each lesson, # of ratings given per lesson. Nothing mysterious there.
ReplyDeleteThe Tong Marina, according to the latest news stories, has already broken ground. So, we'll just roll with whatever comes our way. https://www.channel3000.com/news/wisconsin-hoofers-docks-being-retired-upgraded-with-tong-family-marina-/795788150
Are they going to sell-off the Techs and will the public be able to buy any? I know a few folks that could use a reliable boat for summer sailing and easy winter storage. Club should throw in spare parts and additional sails, too.
ReplyDeleteFair price is ~ $600 for a functioning Tech + 2 Sails and spare parts.
The Hoofer DayCare agenda of fewer member lessons and more kid sailing is part of the plan
ReplyDelete"We are anticipating being able to expand the youth program to allow more children to grow up with the program, as I did," said Botham. "The idea being that this marina is for everyone."
https://www.channel3000.com/news/wisconsin-hoofers-docks-being-retired-upgraded-with-tong-family-marina-/795788150